Poland’s Foreign Policy towards Iran and the Middle East, A Seminar with Robert Czulda of Lodz University Poland’s Foreign Policy towards Iran and the Middle East, A Seminar with Robert Czulda of Lodz University
On October 5, 2016, Dr. Robert Czulda, an assistant professor of international relations at the University of Lodz in Poland made a presentation at the Institute for Middle East Strategic Studies (IMESS) on “Poland’s Foreign Policy towards Iran and the Middle East.” IMESS’ resident and visiting research fellows, faculty members, as well as a number...

November 1, 2016

On October 5, 2016, Dr. Robert Czulda, an assistant professor of international relations at the University of Lodz in Poland made a presentation at the Institute for Middle East Strategic Studies (IMESS) on “Poland’s Foreign Policy towards Iran and the Middle East.” IMESS’ resident and visiting research fellows, faculty members, as well as a number of Ph.D. and postgraduate students from different universities in Tehran attended the seminar. Director of IMESS Dr. Kayhan Barzegar moderated the session. 

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: Good afternoon everyone! Our today’s session is dedicated to Poland’ foreign policy towards Iran and the Middle East. Dr. Robert Czulda, assistant professor of International Relations at the University of Lodz in Poland and a scholar at the Middle East Center of this University, has kindly accepted our invitation and will make a presentation on the topic. Understanding Poland’s issues, in my view, is important for us in three aspects. First, Poland is a big size and significant country in Easter Europe, it has fine and well-established universities and research institutes hosting significant amount of international students. Second, due to geographical attachment to Germany, Poland is experiencing a kind of economic, political and societal integration in the European community and in recent years has been an example of development and economic advancement in its region. And third, is the legacy of the Soviet Union and communist system in Poland in last decades which give us some good knowledge and experiences of political transformation and bridging between tradition and modernity in a European country.  I take the presence of Dr. Czula an opportunity for exchange of views with a European perspective. So please Robert, the floor is yours! 

Dr. Robert Czulda: Thank you very much. My presentation will be divided into several parts. First, I want to present pillars of Polish foreign policy. Then I want to focus briefly on place and role of the Middle East in Polish foreign policy in the past, also in current situation and also the future place of the region in the Polish foreign policy, political foreign policy and also economic foreign policy and then I will say a few words about Polish-Iranian relations and also some obstacles I see or we see which may block or impact the cooperation between two countries. 

So, I can show you but I think and I hope you know the location of Poland is central Europe between Germany, Ukraine, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovakia and in the north, there is the Baltic Sea. So, in the past it was a very bad location for us. Like I said before, many wars but right now it is a great location. Just we are like a bridge between Western Europe and Eastern Europe. That is why a few years ago a railway from China going to Poland was established and at the endpoint you see my city, Ludz. So, this is like a gateway. They send goods from China by trains to Poland to my city and then they use trucks to send them to Western Europe. So, I think it shows this great location of Poland. 

However, at the same time, it means that Europe is and will be a priority for Polish security and foreign policy. So for us, for Polish foreign policy, of course the main pillars are NATO, the foundation of our security system; the EU, it is a political dimension and also economy dimension. For us, a priority is eastern dimension. So, Ukraine, Belarus and also states like Azerbaijan, Georgia; all states which are afraid of Russia are our friends. So, eastern dimension is our priority in terms of foreign policy, political dimension and economic dimension. To some degree, it is also Northern Europe like Sweden because of Russia. Our main economic partner right now is Germany; it [economic partner for Poland] is mostly EU countries mainly Germany. Our main political ally is the U.S. It is the security protector and provider of Poland against Russia. However, you can see some new directions in Polish foreign policy and also economic foreign policy like [Poland’s orientation towards] Asia. There is a very visible change or shift towards Asia like China. We want to improve our relations with China. It means that Poland is eager and open to find new partners.

To show you the current economic strength of Poland, I can say that Poland was one of the fastest growing economies worldwide before the crisis in 2008 and also one of the fastest growing economies after the crisis in Europe. So, for example, before the crisis, GDP growth per capita in Europe in the first place was Ireland 6.2 between 1991 and 2008, the first place was Ireland, then Slovakia 5.3 and then was Poland 4.6. After the crisis, states like Ireland had a GDP growth -1 percent; Greece had -5 percent; Germany for example had -1.5 percent growth and Poland had +2.7. So, we survived the crisis very well. 

So, a few words about Poland and the Middle East. Right now, Poland has embassies and consulates in almost every Middle Eastern and North African countries like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Israel, Palestine; in Ramallah we have our office, Turkey of course, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, of course Iran here in Tehran, also in Kuwait and Qatar and also in Afghanistan and Pakistan. So, we are almost everywhere. Usually we have also an economic office which supports cooperation between the governments or between the companies, the Polish companies and other companies.

I do not want to go into details because it is very long. To say a few words, Poland was very active in the Middle East during the war, the Second World War. After that, Poland was very active in the Middle East but mainly in states like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Yemen and early Egypt when it was a pro-Soviet country. During this period, 1945 and 1989 the Polish foreign policy and security policy was dependent on Russia or the Soviet Union. So, we did not have the freedom to choose our partners. So, if a country was a pro-Soviet country, then Poland was a natural ally or friend or partner for these countries. After 1989 when the Soviet system collapsed, unfortunately our position in the Middle East in countries like Libya or Iraq has collapsed. Almost all ties were destroyed. We had different priorities. You know we had many internal problems like economy, unemployment, finding our place in Europe. So, the Middle East was not important anymore. 

Then, around one percent of Poland’s exports went to the Persian Gulf. So, it was just a minimal exports. But now we can see a very visible growth and increase in Polish exports to the Persian Gulf states. For example, to Saudi Arabia in 2011, Poland sold goods for around 276 million dollars and last year it was almost 700 million dollars. So, there is a huge increase. Iraq the same, from 94 million U.S. dollars to 159 million U.S. dollars. The same with Kuwait, from 36 to 68 million; United Arab Emirates from 271 million to 1.1 billion U.S. dollars. So, you can see a very visible increase. There are just two countries which have a decrease like Syria because of war and Iran. In the case of Iran, it was from 90 million to 44 million because of sanctions. We are part of the EU which means that if the EU imposes sanctions, we have to follow them. We cannot change the decisions. So, because of sanctions, our ties were cut. 

And also, we can see a very visible change in the increase of exports. In the case of UAE, it is 49 percent. In the case of Iran, it is -3 percent. So, we had decrease in exports. In European exports to the broader Persian Gulf area, our trade now is around 400 billion Euro per year. So, it is around 111 billion Euro to the GCC countries. And Polish share of these exports to the region is just 0.4 percent. So, it is a very small share for the Polish exports to the Persian Gulf area. Our main products exported to the Persian Gulf are grains, 32 percent of Polish exports to Saudi Arabia and grain harvester machinery is around 30 percent of Polish exports to Iraq and that was surprising for me, sound equipment to Iran. Around 46 percent of exports from Poland to Iran are sound systems. I do not know why. In the case of Jordan, 30 percent of polish exports are aircraft, different civilian and military aircraft. 

Right now in many countries of the Persian Gulf except Iran, but in Arab countries, you can find polish companies like cosmetics, Reserved Company of clothes or also Inglot which is a famous cosmetics company. I do not know it because I do not use them. But you can find in Dubai, in Kuwait and Qatar. Also, water can be bought in the Persian Gulf Arab countries and other stuff can be bought there. 

And for the future, we can say that the current Polish position in the NATO and the EU is secured which means that we can improve our position in NATO and the EU which means that we are looking for new partners and right now, the Polish government and also the Polish companies see the Persian Gulf area as a new potential area of Polish exports to buy some goods from the area for Poland. And right now countries like Libya could be a potential partner, also Arab countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia are potential partners and you can see, like I said, increase of Polish exports. 

What can Poland offer? For example, IT services. There are a lot of IT companies working in Poland and I know some of them are already here in Iran. There are some IT experts sent from Poland to Iran to work with the Iranian companies. Also, we have strong furniture industry, house equipments and heavy vehicles. food also is our important product and there is very visible increase of exports to Iran after 2011. So, you can find some Polish food here in Iran. Medical equipment, we have many many goods in that field; also mining equipment because we have many mines like coal mines and these things are also present in the Persian Gulf. 

So, a few words about Iran and Poland: sometimes relations and cooperation is built on emotions and like we said a few days ago, there was a very strong and positive emotion link between Poland and Iran. We have more than 500 years of good relations between Poland and Iran. There was never a war between Poland and Iran and in fact we cooperated against Turkey because it was a common enemy both for Iran, Persia, and for Poland. 

The first Polish-Persia relations came from 1474 when Iranian Shah sent a letter to the Polish King and then the Polish envoy came to Iran to buy carpets for Polish [King]. And then of course, like we said a few days ago, there is a story of Polish refugees coming to Iran which means that when you think about Iran in Poland, you have a very positive association, positive connotation in your mind which is I think very important background for cooperation and every government, every delegation coming from Poland to Iran or coming from Iran to Poland emphasize on this historical cooperation. After the war, after 1945 until 1979, there was a very small cooperation between Poland and Iran. Iran was a pro-Western country under Shah and Poland was a pro-Soviet country and it was a member of the Soviet system. So there was no chance for Poland to cooperate with a great enemy member of this Western system. 

After 1979, the situation has changed but Iran was neither West neither East. So, it was again difficult to cooperate. The Soviet government preferred Iraq and Saddam Hussein. So, we were not able to choose our partners. However, after 1979, after the revolution, Poland was one of the first countries to recognize the Islamic government of Iran and then of course we recognized the Islamic Republic of Iran. So, when you talk to Polish businessmen in the Polish industry, there are several fields of potential cooperation: scientific which is interesting for me like in universities like [academic] staff exchange, student exchange. There is a very visible link. Like I said before, there are already Persian studies at several universities. So, Iran has a very strong position in Polish academic system. 

The other field is energy because we are dependent on Russia in terms of oil and gas, mainly gas. So, we are looking for new partners and Iran is a perfect partner for us. So, we are interested in buying gas or oil from Iran. Industrial cooperation like heavy industry is another field of potential cooperation between us. Tourism, Iran is a great place for holidays although it is a unknown place. If you are an average tourist in Poland, you would think about Egypt, Turkey, maybe not now because of terrorism but in the past Turkey was number one, Morocco; you would never think about Iran but you can see there is a very visible change. For example, every time and this is my fifth time in Iran, every time I went to Iran embassy in Warsaw to apply for a visa, I was alone; there was nobody else. But right now, there is a line of people waiting for visa. So, this is a new trend and I think this could be improved. Other possible fields of cooperation is food and Iran has to import food and food products and we can offer this too and apparently our food is available in Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and also in Iraq. 

However, at the same time, there are several obstacles to have cooperation between Poland and Iran like sanctions. Like I said, we cannot avoid them. If there are sanctions, we cannot cooperate. We have to obey the sanctions set by both the UN and by the EU. So, there is no chance to avoid this issue. Other problem I see is the language barrier because usually we speak Polish and you speak Farsi. So, sometimes it is a problem and also there is a lack of cultural contacts and this is a different way how we make business. In Europe, we make business by sending an email, by calling somebody and here in Iran, I think it is based on individuals. You have to know somebody and you have to come but the Polish business and European business is based on a system that you go somewhere and you do a business very fast. I come with an offer; this is my offer and you say yes or no and we sign an agreement. Here in Iran I think you need much more time. You have to meet somebody and talk many times. So, there is this difference. 

Other problem I would say is the different law. In the EU, we have a common law which means that if I have a company in Poland and if I want to sell something to Spain for example I know the system; I know the law; I know the taxes which is much easier. Here the system is different and Iranian law is fully unknown. Do I need a permission? or can I come here and can I open a company?  Do I have to pay taxes? What is the tax in Iran? So, there are many problems, regulations, requirements from the government, from different authorities and of course no personal contacts. Like I said before, there should be a contact for you to sell something or you invest your money in a different country. The other problem is the image of Iran. If you talk with people in Europe, the image of Iran is very bad for several reasons the image is very bad. So, you do not think about investing in Iran. The other problem is the foreign policy, both foreign policy of Iran and the foreign policy of Poland. We are an ally to the US and we will not change this. So, if for example you want to cooperate with Poland on, I do not know, defense issues, that would be very difficult because we will not change our priorities and of course, Iran will not change them either. [Indeed], there are some fields which cannot be fields of cooperation but there are some fields which can be used for cooperation. 

So, there are some accomplishments already in this cooperation between Poland and Iran. For example, in 2008, there was a letter of intent signed by two companies, Iranian Offshore Oil Company and Orlen [a large oil company in Poland]. Orlen is an energy company; it is the biggest one in Poland and an agreement [was signed] in 2016, a few weeks ago. There was the first ship, the first tanker coming from Iran with oil for Polish industry. Last year, there was a delegation with the Polish minister of economy here in Iran. In 2014, there was a huge delegation with the Polish foreign minister coming to Tehran. Unfortunately, when he arrived Tehran, he was forced to come back because the war in Ukraine broke out. So, he had to go back to Poland. So, the whole mission unfortunately failed. And very soon there would be an economic office opened here in Tehran to support the cooperation between Poland and Iran and there are some Polish delegations, some Polish envoys sent to the Middle East trade in Abu Dhabi. These are some economic trades. So, we send our envoys to Abu Dhabi. 

So, again what Poland can offer to Iran, as I said, IT services, furniture, house equipment, heavy machinery, food, medical equipment, also medicines and also clothes for example. So, a few policy recommendations, if I may, to present them. First of all, we should get to know each other better. If you want to do a business, if you want to invest, you should know your partner and this is I think step number one. So, apart from a political level, there should be some technical visits and also visits of people from the companies, not only political like ministers or secretaries. It is not enough. There should be guys working in different sectors of economy. 

The next factor is removing psychological barriers. When you think about Iran, there should be a positive thinking, a positive image of Iran and the same when you think about the Polish or Western and European investors, there should be a positive reaction here in Iran. Removing some law barriers or at least introducing these law [legal] problems and law issues to Polish companies and of course introducing polish law to Iranian companies willing to invest in Poland and one of the biggest obstacles is to remove the problems with the transfer of money; you know, this is a huge problem. If you want to buy anything here, you need cash. I cannot use my card here and this is a huge problem. When you do business, you will send money via transfer and you do not use cash. Here, it is a huge problem. 

The next problem is to find local distributors; at least that is the case in Arab countries in the Persian Gulf. If you want to sell something, you need a local company which will sell your products on your behalf. So, the Polish companies need to find these local distributors here in Iran. So, a few words of my conclusion, definitely the Middle East and Iran will never be a priority for Poland. We will have different priorities and we will not change them. Again also for Iran, Poland will never be a priority but at the same time, there is a window of opportunity; there is a place for cooperation in different sectors and I think it’s now or never; there is a very good atmosphere around Iran; there is this hope that there will be a change in your relations between Europe, the West and Iran. So, this is a great moment to start this cooperation. If this fails, that might be the last chance to do this. Thank you very much. 

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: Thank you Robert. This was very good! How did you yourself change your view of Iran in the course of traveling to our country? I mean how your five travels to Iran has changed your view of Iran?

Dr. Robert Czulda: It is a political scientist. I had this historical note. When I thought about Iran, I thought about the revolution or the Shah period and of course about the Iran-Iraq war. When I came here, I met many Iranians, just average people, students and different average Iranians and it changed my attitude and my image. That is why this is my fifth time. If I did not like Iran, I would not come here five times and probably I will come next year. So, this is the first step: to come to Iran, see Iranians that they are not evil, crazy people and you can do some business with them or different things with them. 

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: Then the second question is how you try to or you have tried to change the image of Iran in your university? 

Dr. Robert Czulda: Yes, my first visit was in 2011, four years ago. To present an image of Iran, I have to go back to 2011, when I went to Iraq as a journalist and all my friends, I told you the story, were concerned. You are going to Iraq but it is not safe. I came back and said I am going to Iran. All my friends went crazy. You are going to Iran; it is not safe. And I said there is no war in Iran. I have just came back from Iraq and you are saying that it is not safe. So, after my first visit, I was invited by the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance to come to Tehran. When I came back, I wrote an article about Iran. 

So, my main assumption and my main conclusion was that people in Iran are the same. They have the same problems as we have like unemployment, what to do in their lives or social issues. And right now, I have sometimes different meetings with students, average people about Iran; I show them pictures and I say this is a normal country with normal people. You can go there and everything will be fine. But just do not try to cross their roads. It is fine. So, I have several meetings or briefings about Iran every year for average people. You know every person I know came Iran was happy and his or her reaction was very good. 

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: So, you are researching on Iran now, right?

Dr. Robert Czulda: Yes.

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: In which part exactly? Can you show it to the audience? 

Dr. Robert Czulda: I try to focus on Iranian foreign policy and this is my ambition for the future to present Iranian foreign policy from Iranian point of view. When you read about Iran, you read from Western scholars and I think it is important to understand Iranian perception. How do you see different things? What is important for you? How do you assess threats? How do you assess the challenges for you, for your country, for your system? And, this is important. So, again I told you about my plan to write a book as an editor with different authors from Iranian point of view to present Iranian perspective, Iranian narrative. 

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: But you need to know Farsi, right?

Dr. Robert Czulda: Yes, this is still a challenge.

Question: My name is Galavizh Hemmat Bolandpour and I am a visiting research fellow at this Institute and also a Ph.D. student of international relations at the Islamic Azad University, Science and Research Branch in Tehran. When you first came to Iran in 2011, you did not have any idea how the publishing system is like here in Iran and then, now thinking of writing a book. Was it just the atmosphere that changed your mind?

Dr. Robert Czulda: Probably yes.  

Galavizh Hemmat Bolandpour: But if you were not in the position of, for example, an academic researcher, came here as a journalist, did you have such a perspective again regarding Iran’s foreign policy? 

Dr. Robert Czulda: Probably. I am interested in foreign policy and diplomacy. So, that would be still my topic I think.

Galavizh Hemmat Bolandpour: And one more thing: most of the things that you mentioned were about economic and financial dimensions and hopefully in the future, the relations will increase between the two countries and nations. I have heard many things about political relations; you said we are not a priority for each other with regards to politics but I think that there is not an especial country like Iran for Poland or Poland for Iran in international relations. What’s your opinion about this issue? 

Dr. Robert Czulda: But that could be step number two. I mean there are so many differences in terms of foreign policy between Poland and Iran; that would be very difficult. For example, regarding policy towards Russia, Russia is an important ally of Iran. For us, it is a challenge and many other examples. So, it would be a challenge. I think let’s start with something easier like economy and then, you can think in the future about other fields. If we start with the politics, we might fail. 

Question: My name is Salman Ayoubi and I am a Ph.D. student of political science at the Islamic Azad University, Science and Research Branch in Tehran. I have two questions. First, it is about Turkey. Erdogan in Turkey has created an authoritarian regime in Turkey. He wants to rehabilitate a new Ottoman Empire and confiscate the power in Turkey. They have one potential power in Turkey. They suppress the Kurdish minorities there. How do you react against Turkey as a Polish and as a holistic view of the European Union? My next question is about the north of Syria. There are two ideologies here: Kurdish and extremist ideologies like ISIS and Al-Nosrat Front. How do you react to the fact that the European Union like the United States has recognized the Kurdish authorities in the north of Syria?

Dr. Robert Czulda: There are two parts in my personal view and the view of my government. The view of my government of Poland is that we support the fight against ISIS. For example, we deployed our troops in Kuwait to help and to train Iraqi and Kuwaiti forces in fights against the so-called Islamic State. However, again the political dimension of the Middle East is not that important for us. Currently we have war in Ukraine. So, this is our priority. We invest a lot of money to improve our defense capabilities against eastern threats, let’s say eastern threats. So, the Middle East in terms of terrorists is not a priority for us and probably it will not change its priorities because we do not have a problem with terrorism like at least for now but it might change. So this is, I would say, a secondary priority for us. Although we support other countries fighting with terrorism or with the ISIS, we support in terms of intelligence; we also support the Kurdish fighters fighting against the Islamic State. As far as I know, we provided them with some equipment to fight against different groups inside the Islamic State. 

As for Turkey, Turkey is a member of NATO. Also, Poland is a member of NATO. However, the Polish-Turkish political cooperation is not that strong. There are states like Germany for example and they are more active in their relations with Turkey. We tried to improve our defense cooperation despite this political level because Turkey has a very strong defense industry and we want to acquire some technologies. If you ask about my personal view, what happened in Turkey like coup d'etat or potential coup d'etat is a great problem because right now, Turkey is not a very trustworthy partner. A few years ago, Turkey was that kind of partner but not now. What is the future of Turkey? Are they going to stay in NATO? Or are they going to have an alliance with Russia? So, we are waiting. We do not really know what to do. But the main role will be played by Germany and the U.S. not by us. We are not that powerful to go to Ankara and say you should change your policy. This is not our role. I think we will follow other countries in that case. 

Question: My name is Fahimeh Ghorbani and I am a PhD student of international relations and a research fellow at this Institute. I have two questions. First, how does Poland see Iran’s regional role? And second is about Poland’s policies towards Muslim refugees. As I have recently read an article that Poland so reluctant to accept Muslim immigrants. What is you take on this?

Dr. Robert Czulda: I think there is no current Polish opinion towards Iran’s role in different issues; I mean, we support every country who fights the Islamic State. Iran is a member of a great coalition. So, we support them. This is just a political support without any different or any particular actions. So, right now there is this symbolic support of Iran and also we support Iran in fighting the drug trafficking from Pakistan to Afghanistan because some of these drugs come also to Poland. So, I know there was some kind of cooperation, a police cooperation between the Polish police and also Iranian security forces before the sanctions a few years ago. After the sanctions, the cooperation has stopped. So, maybe now there is this opportunity to do something again. 

As for the refugees, that is right. Poland is very reluctant to accept these people. Last years, there were two camps. People who said we should not accept these people and those who said we should accept these people. After the events in Germany and France and after the pictures from Calais when you see these people burning houses, attacking different civilians, the first camp who said we should not accept them became bigger. So, it is very difficult to convince anybody in Poland why we should accept them. When you think about refugees, you think about women; you think about children and according to official data, they are mainly men. Around 75 percent are just men between the ages of 20 to 30. So, for us they are not real refugees. They come from different countries, also African countries. Most of them when they come to Europe, they say we are Syrians; we come from Syria. Even if they come from Africa for example, they say I am Syrian. And right now we see it is a huge problem for Western Europe. So, we just want to avoid this problem.

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: Do you know how many Iranians are living in Poland? 

Dr. Robert Czulda: It is just a very small community, a few hundreds probably. It is a very small group. Although Poland contributes financial contributions, they pay for some camps in Lebanon and also in Turkey. We donate money for these camps. 

Fahimeh Gourbani: I have another question. I would like to know how Poland sees the Middle East crises including the Syrian crisis.

Dr. Robert Czulda: So again, Syria is a quite remote country for us. It is a very long way from Poland. So, at the beginning, we were not that interested. This was just a conflict somewhere. But after this refugee crisis, somehow it became also our problem. We are not affected by the problem of the refugees but for example Hungry which is a country very close to us was affected by the refugee crisis. So, right now we support a peaceful solution. We want peace to be brought into Syria. However, we are not involved in terms of a military involvement or we do not play any role in political negotiations between the sides. Again, we are not that powerful. There are much more powerful countries like the U.S., Russia, Turkey and Iran and they can play much more important role than we can play. It is too exotic for us to be a member of negotiations. This is our official policy and we want to see peace in Syria. Without a peace in Syria, other countries like Lebanon and Jordan might also fall and then the conflict will be even more dangerous also for Poland. 

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: Very good. What is your next plan in visiting Iran? In what format? 

Dr. Robert Czulda: I do not know but I am open to suggestions.                

Dr. Kayhan Barzegar: Ok, this was very good. We still have time but we spare it for the reception part and further exchanges. Thanks to all for being here. (audience applause)

Compiled by:
Fahimeh Ghorbani, a research fellow at the Institute for Middle East Strategic studies 



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